A conversation with Yuichi Ikai

This time, we visited Ikai Yuichi's Tsuboya Kihe Gama and had a chance to talk.
[Ikai] → Yuichi Ikai [Nishimura] → Ichimai Nishimura, Owner of Amagimichi


[Nishimura] Was there a lecture this evening?

[Ikai] No, there's a meeting today.

[Nishimura] Do you have many opportunities to give lectures?

[Ikai] Starting tomorrow I have pottery school (Kyoto Prefectural Pottery Technical College) where I will be talking about various things including practical skills.

[Nishimura] Are there a lot of students?

[Ikai] It's only for those in the two-year course, so there are 10 people.

[Nishimura] Spending two years with 10 people seems like it will be a very intense two years. What kind of things will you be talking about?

[Ikai] Pottery schools primarily train craftsmen. Many of them go on to become artists, so instead of teaching students the standard way to use a potter's wheel, we teach them how to express their own individuality.

[Nishimura] So, rather than technique, you're talking about mindset, how to live your life, and things like that?

[Ikai] That's right. At school, the basic rule is not to show your individuality as a craftsman, so we teach students what it means to show individuality. Once you start working at a pottery studio, you can't make anything different from what you made before. You have to stick to the specified dimensions. If you show individuality at the wheel stage, the next person won't be able to make anything. If you leave the school and go on to train somewhere, you can be taught there, but nowadays many people go independent right away. When that happens, what you learned at school becomes everything, and everyone ends up using the same way of turning the wheel and carving.

[Nishimura] If you're an artist, it's not good if all 10 people make the same thing.

[Ikai] I go to teach how to use a potter's wheel to make clay, but at school we teach full carving. I don't carve much of what I make. I only carve a little bit around the edges. If you're not taught how to use a potter's wheel like that, you'll just make everything a little thicker and carve it roughly. You'll end up just carving to create lines. If you use rough clay, you can't carve it, so it's important to complete it using only the potter's wheel.

[Nishimura] I see. As a hobby, I go to see university students perform rakugo. Shortly after the first-year students enter the school, the new members perform rakugo as part of a "newcomer study group." It is always very entertaining. Then, around autumn, I went to see the fourth-year students' graduation performance, but this performance was not much more entertaining than the first-year students. I thought it was very difficult. It almost made me think that maybe there is no such thing as improvement in rakugo. What does it mean to improve in pottery?

[Ikai] The curriculum of today's pottery schools is more like a vocational school than a university. You do the same thing from morning to night. The purpose is to train craftsmen. That was me too, but even people who have never touched clay, don't know how to make it, and don't even know what a potter's wheel is. After a year, even such people can make a decent amount. In other words, they can make small pots. They can make rice bowls, teacups, and sake bottles, regardless of their skill level. After all, it is a school to train craftsmen, and Kyoto Prefecture provides the money to train Kyoto craftsmen with almost no tuition fees. However, now there are many from other regions, and the number of women has increased. When we were there, women were not allowed. In the days when potters were men and painting was women.

[Nishimura] I see. Times are changing. I had a look at your website. When I read the prologue, I was first struck by your master, Shimizu Uichi. I think you were not only focusing on Kyoto, but also on Bizen and other production areas.

[Ikai] I wasn't interested in pottery in my teens, so I didn't look at pottery as good or bad. I helped out at the pottery market, so I only knew whether it would sell or not. I didn't think "this is good" at the time. I didn't know where it was produced, and when I was about 16 years old, I wasn't even aware of the existence of Kiyomizu ware. I went to a pottery school and learned about earthenware such as Bizen and Shigaraki, and became interested in it. The teacher I happened to meet also made earthenware, and he imitated Chinese and Korean pottery and made them in his own way, interpreting them in his own way. After about a week of entering the pottery school, I was able to stretch the clay and do it from the very beginning. Some people can't do it at school, and those who enroll after working for about three years can do it well. I think I was happy there, and it was fun. I thought it was good to watch TV dramas to train as a chef. The pottery teacher can do it easily, but sometimes I can't. But one day, I suddenly can do it. That's the fun of it. And when I looked up further, I found some amazing craftsmen.

[Nishimura] That's an interesting story.

[Ikai] After graduating from pottery school, I was still trying to make popular items like those I had at home. My master told me things like, "You're a businessman's son," and "This is a product." It's still hard to explain, but there's a difference between products and artworks. Some pieces are more like products, and some are more like artworks.

[Nishimura] I see. So once you reach a certain level you'll be able to make them freely?

[Ikai] There is the idea of ​​having many different hands. However, there are also artists who are only conscious of one hand. There are also artists who only create in one place. My family was in business, so when I look at the works of my master and his predecessors, I see that he also has works that are more like products, and he was born into a business family. However, Ishiguro Munema does not have a product-like smell at all. I brought home a bunch of pottery from the workshop yesterday and was just washing it, and you can tell that Ishiguro Munema is the type even by looking at the smallest piece of pottery.

[Nishimura] So, does that mean that the pottery shards have something characteristic of Ishiguro Munema ?

[Ikai] You can tell right away. You can tell by the atmosphere.

[Nishimura] That's amazing.

[Ikai] When it comes to pottery, I think about originality. Even when it's original, I arrange Japanese or Chinese pottery in my own way and transform it into something completely different. My master had amazing technique. He had skills that went beyond craftsmanship. Ishiguro-san doesn't have much technique, but his originality is even more amazing. Even today, it's stylish. People who work in computers and graphic design now make similar comments and say, "That's stylish," and there's a universal sensibility that makes them say that. I was once fascinated by Ishiguro Munema, and I also wanted to imitate him.

[Nishimura] I feel that Mr. Ikai's dynamic works with celadon glaze are very original.


[Ikai] He was originally the son of Okabe Mineo and Kato Tokuro, and was influenced by them to make his works. He deliberately doesn't make them skillfully, but makes them thick and uses clay that is difficult to turn on the wheel. He doesn't show off his skills, but just scratches the surface of the clay by grinding it. Celadon was originally meant to be presented to the emperor in China, so it should not be distorted at all. However, Okabe Mineo made celadon in the Japanese style. He was able to do that because he was a master of the wheel. Celadon is glazed thickly, so thick that it is thicker than the clay itself. The original base must be made very well. Because it is assumed that it will be applied thickly, it will become too heavy and the shape will become blurred. I also made moon glaze soon after I started making pottery, so I sold a lot. But my master told me, "Don't do it, you don't have the skill to make this yet." It sells because the color is beautiful, but I was told that "If you don't hone your skills when you're young, you'll end up regretting it later." So I stopped using celadon and moon glaze for a while and started using ash glaze. Ash glaze is thin, so you can see the whole base. You can see all the little things the maker does, so I started using that after I was able to do that. So there was a period when I didn't use thick glazes. In Japan, many people who make celadon are inspired by China, so there are many artists who make solid, sublime, and elegant pieces. One day, Kuroda Touen in Tokyo asked me, "Why don't you try celadon, Ikai-san? (Because I've been using a clay potter's wheel for a long time, like Mineo-san)," so I started using a thin glaze to make celadon, but it still took three years. Finally, I was able to make things like this, and Kuroda Touen praised me. After all, you can't get the atmosphere of Mineo-san unless you're a person who can use a clay potter's wheel.

[Nishimura] That's a very interesting story.


[Ikai] This piece has been fired twice. The green color from the ash glaze and the Oribe green color do not normally come out in the same kiln, but they have come out in this case, and when a professional sees it, they ask, "Why is the Oribe green coming out?"


[Ikai] This one was fired in a climbing kiln, and ash fell on it, causing it to change color. Pine ash has fallen on it. It is smaller than a typical Ido, but the temperature has risen considerably. Since it is something everyone aims to achieve, we call it Ido-te rather than Ido. "Te" means that it is an imitation. Ido tea bowls have an original poem, so it is easy to call yourself a Ido if you have a very original shape.


[Ikai] Nanban is made using clay that is not originally suitable for pottery. It uses clay that does not harden no matter how many times it is fired. This clay does not dissolve the glaze, so it is fired over and over again. With pottery, the clay and glaze melt together and stick to each other, but this clay does not dissolve at all. The raw materials supplier told me, "We have this clay," so I used it. If you lay a pot on its side, it would normally distort, but this clay does not distort at all. It is clay that is too fire-resistant. It is interesting that it has no luster and does not shine.


[Ikai] A thick white glaze is applied to the base, and then a clear green glaze is applied on top of that. The white glaze is similar to that of bush clover and contains a lot of straw ash. The green glaze is made from common trees such as pine, oak, and cedar. The cloudy white is made from bamboo, which grows quickly and becomes straw-like, and is strong because it does not burn easily, and does not dissolve on its own, becoming cloudy white.

[Nishimura] The vase is also powerful, and I thought it was nice that the lighting and appearance changed when I placed it in a different location.


[Ikai] When I started pottery, I longed for a climbing kiln. As you know, climbing kilns were not possible in Kyoto, and although they were possible in the past, it seems that young people from the past were reluctant to lend them space. Yagi Kazuo of Sodeisha was also only able to fire at the very back of the kiln in the early days. I asked him about the frustration he felt. It seems that his motivation was, "I'll become a kiln owner someday." My master was also only allowed to use the edge kiln at first.

[Nishimura] I've only seen it in photographs, but the ceramic object Samsa was on the edge, wasn't he?

[Ikai] Yes, it seems that they were fired in a stale kiln where the temperature does not rise. Currently, the climbing kiln is in Nantan City. If it were a pottery production area, it would make sense, but the smell of smoke from burning pine is unique, and completely different from the smell of burning straw, which is common in the countryside. The smoke is black, like burning tires, and it presents some difficult issues. But it's not like climbing kilns are good and electricity is bad. It's good to use the right thing in the right way. I would like to be able to make things that people never get tired of, especially when it comes to tableware. It's always on top of the cupboard. It's something that's kept within easy reach.

[Nishimura] It's good to have something that can be used on an everyday basis, not just on special occasions.

[Ikai] I think that as an artist, you have to strongly express your individuality, but I've always had an aesthetic preference for hiding things, so I don't want to reveal everything.

[Nishimura] That probably has something to do with what is Kyoto-like.

[Ikai] When I was young, I would buy things that no one else was buying, rather than the most popular trends. I think that sensibility is reflected in my pottery.