A conversation with Matsubayashi Hosai
[Pine forest] → Matsubayashi Hosai (Matsubayashi Hosai)
[Nishimura] → Nishimura Ichimai (Owner of Amagimichi)
[Nishimura] Thank you for taking the time to take the time to see us today. First, I'd like to ask you about the sake cup I'd like to introduce to you today. In fact, when I first saw this piece, I was really drawn to the exquisite contrast between the beautiful pale blue of the Geppakuyu glaze and the gold leaf that flows elegantly over it. I feel that it expresses the spirit of "kirei sabi" in a modern way, and while the gorgeousness of the gold leaf is reminiscent of the Rinpa school perfected by Ogata Korin and others, Asahi ware continues to carry on the aesthetic sense of "kirei sabi" from the tea master Kobori Enshu. How do you combine these two elements?
[Matsubayashi] The term "kirei sabi" is the aesthetic sense that is the basis of Asahiyaki, and it is a very important theme of my work both historically and for me. In contrast to the aesthetic sense of "wabi-sabi," which is said to have been perfected by Sen no Rikyu, "kirei" combines opposing elements, such as "kirei" and brings about harmony. It harmonizes the imperfection, simplicity, and withered atmosphere of "wabi-sabi" with the gorgeousness, refinement, and elegance of "kirei." On the other hand, I think that the type of vessel that this aesthetic sense is output as changes with the times. My Tsukishiroyu Ryushi works have been created as works that capture this "kirei sabi" in a modern way. The light blue of the Tsukishiroyu is a very "beautiful" color. In contrast to it, there is a primitive earthen taste, and the white cosmetic clay harmonizes them with a modern sensibility. If people 400 years ago saw this, it would have seemed a bolder and more dynamic work than the colors of Oribe.
However, we live in a modern age where we are overwhelmed with stimulating colors. For us, I believe that the harmony of this contrast between "beauty" and "sabi" is what creates a comfortable "beautiful sabi," and my gold leaf works are an extension of this.
Certainly, the gorgeousness of gold may remind us of the Rinpa school. However, when viewed from our modern eyes, I believe that my works as a whole have a harmony that falls into the category of "kirei sabi". In fact, before making this gold leaf work, I felt that the gold leaf technique was too gorgeous, but when I continued making pottery alone in my studio during the COVID-19 period, I felt a desire to face pottery with a more cheerful attitude, and so I started making this. I think that it was also a big factor that, as I created works using the Gesshiroyu Ryushi after taking on the name, I gained the skill and confidence to harmonize the strong material of gold with the works using the Gesshiroyu Ryushi.
[Nishimura] Thank you. The moon white glaze has a pale blue hue and a unique transparency, giving it a fantastical beauty that evokes the light of the moon floating in the night sky, and the composition with the gold color flowing into it is very mystical. Also, Asahiyaki is a pottery manufacturer with over 400 years of history in Uji, and I heard that it is one of the "Seven Enshu Kilns" that received instruction from the tea master Kobori Enshu. Among the three great tea masters, Sen no Rikyu, Furuta Oribe, and Kobori Enshu, Enshu in particular was the one who brought harmony and elegance into the world of tea pottery by establishing "kirei sabi". As the 16th generation of Asahiyaki with such a long history, you are also taking on new challenges. What are your thoughts on "tradition" and "innovation"?
Deer back tea bowl made by Toyosai XV
Deer back tea caddy made by Toyosai XV
Red deer back tea bowl made by Toyosai XV
[Matsubayashi] I feel that my work is shaped by a combination of three elements. The first is the Asahiyaki style. This includes the aesthetic sense of "kirei sabi" (beautiful sabi), the use of Uji clay, and a commitment to the potter's wheel, among other elements, but it has been cultivated through the continuous passing of tradition. The second is the era. As the 16th head of Asahiyaki, I believe that the atmosphere of the era in which I live will definitely be reflected in my work, and I don't think there is any point in making it if it isn't. Even when I create very classical works, I believe that there are some modern elements in them. The third is my own style. This cannot be separated from the above two, but as a person living in the modern era who carries the tradition of Asahiyaki on my back, I create with a personality that has been formed by encountering and experiencing various things and people, and this is always reflected in my work. As for the works of Tsukishiroyu Ryushi, I think that my style was created by my increased activities overseas several years before I started this style, and my experience of making pottery in St. Ives in England. I believe that when you create something with these three elements, tradition will definitely be renewed. As the heir to Asahiyaki, which has been passed down for over 400 years through 16 generations, I cannot see tradition and innovation as two different elements as is commonly said. I believe that something that maintains continuity and continues to be renewed is what is ultimately called tradition. Therefore, I have no hesitation in incorporating new elements into tradition, and I believe that continuity is found there. However, I would like to add that I believe there is genuine innovation that exists at the opposite end of tradition. It is not only tradition that is necessary in the world, but revolutionary innovation that breaks continuity and creates something completely new also exists and is necessary in the world. Tradition that maintains continuity while continuing to be renewed, and revolutionary newness that breaks. These two things are necessary in society, and I believe I am in charge of the former.
[Nishimura] When I introduce Matsubayashi's works to customers, many of them say, "It's too precious to use." But in reality, I think you can only appreciate the true value of a piece by using it. The more you use tools, not just tableware, the more you love them and the more flavor you gain from them. The more you use pottery, the more it fits your hand and changes its appearance. It's beautiful just to display it and admire it, but I think it's only by actually pouring sake or making tea that you can get the feeling that it's "your own." Also, I was deeply impressed when I heard that Asahiyaki has a custom of leaving the clay carved by the previous generation to rest so that the next generation can continue to use it. While you will continue to carry on the tradition in this way, what kind of works do you have in mind for the future?
[Matsubayashi] Japanese culture, especially the tea ceremony, is characterized by the idea of appreciating the tools we use as art. In Western tradition, there has been a clear distinction between craft, which is created to be used, and art, which is created to be appreciated, but this does not exist in Japan.
Therefore, I think that enjoying our works including the tactile sensations such as touch and mouthfeel is a good way to appreciate our pottery more deeply. I believe that good pottery is something that not only the maker but also the user can pour their feelings into. I would be happy if you would use it a lot, feel a lot, and pour your feelings into the pottery. As you said, Asahiyaki traditionally digs the soil ourselves and uses it to make pottery, but instead of using the soil we just dug up, we have a custom of using the soil that was dug up and left to rest in our grandfather's time to make pottery. This tradition exists because our ancestors have been making pottery with their descendants in mind, and in that sense, I too must fulfill my responsibility for my generation. Each era had its own background, and everyone has passed on Asahiyaki to the next generation in a form appropriate to their era. I would like to make Asahiyaki that is unique to this era in order to fulfill my responsibility to the next generation. There has never been a time in the past when Asahiyaki pottery has been used by people outside of Japan as much as it is now. Of course, we were founded on the Japanese climate and culture, so it would not be meaningful to depart too far from that, but we still want to maintain the continuity of Asahiyaki tradition and create Asahiyaki with a more universal value of beauty that will be loved by people all over the world. I think that the first step towards that is the Gesshiroyu Ryushi and Kinsai pieces.
[Nishimura] Thank you for sharing your valuable story with us today. I was reminded that the "Kirei Sabi" that has been passed down through the Asahiyaki tradition of over 400 years is not just a continuation of the classics, but is something that is naturally updated with the times. I learned a lot from learning that the wonderful harmony of the gold leaf and the moon white glaze was created by fully incorporating Mr. Matsubayashi's own experience abroad and our modern sensibilities. I also strongly sympathized with your words that the original charm of a piece is further deepened by not just displaying it, but actually holding it in your hands and using it, and pouring the owner's thoughts into it. I believe that the rich texture of Asahiyaki's clay, along with the thoughts of us users, will expand the world of "Kirei Sabi". I look forward to seeing the future development of Asahiyaki, where tradition, modernity, and the individuality of each individual are woven together. Thank you very much for today.