A conversation with Bunsai Ogawa
This time, we visited Bunsai Kiln, owned by Ogawa Bunsai.
[Ogawa] → Mr. Bunsai Ogawa
[Nishimura] → Nishimura Ichimai (Owner of Amagimichi)
[Nishimura] The green hues in all of Mr. Ogawa's works are very striking. I felt that red was the main color in the works of his predecessor, so was there a particular trigger or episode that led you to use "green" as the main color in your own works? I'm very curious.
[Ogawa] To be honest, I don't really remember what sparked it, but I've loved the color green since I was a child. My father's style was characterized by emphasizing red, so he used a technique of adding a little green to make the red stand out. I think that was my father's aesthetic sense. But in my case, I naturally had a strong feeling that "I really love green," so I tried to go in a different direction from my father. My father's idea was to make red the main color and green a supporting role, but in my case, I came up with the idea of "making green the main color and adding red as needed."
[Nishimura] As a result, green is the main color in your current works. When I look at them, I find them really interesting, with their depth and variety.
[Ogawa] Thank you. Actually, ever since I started my journey as a potter, I realized that I was always drawn to the color green. I sometimes wondered why I was so drawn to the color green, but in the end, it was natural for me to continue making what I liked, and that's how my current style took root.
[Nishimura] I understand that you are now in your sixth generation in the Ogawa family. I imagine that there are many works by your predecessors remaining, so it must be difficult to compare them and think about your own direction. I feel that following in the footsteps of your great predecessors must be a source of pressure.
[Ogawa] I don't really care about that. At first, I may have hesitated for a moment, thinking, "My father made these kinds of works, so what should I do?", but in the end, I couldn't make the same things as my father, and I didn't want to make them the same. Also, once I realized that "if I can't make the same things, I can just make what I like," I felt more at ease. Of course, I always feel the responsibility and pressure of taking over pottery in a historic family, but I am relatively free to take on the direction of my work.
Ice cracked tea bowl Bunsai Ogawa (5th generation)
[Nishimura] As a pottery manufacturer with over 150 years of history, I imagine it takes a great deal of energy just to continue what your predecessors have built, but even within that, it's important to express your own individuality.
[Ogawa] That's right. While cherishing what my ancestors have built up, I challenge myself to find new ways of expression and a style that is unique to me. And if the results are recognized as being "inherited" somewhere, then I'm grateful for that. However, I don't feel much pressure in terms of the direction of my work. If anything, it's more difficult to "continue history."
[Nishimura] I see. It's certainly difficult not to let it end. It has to be handed over to the next generation, and to do that, the skills and knowledge have to be properly preserved.
[Ogawa] Yes, I think that's the most important thing. There are documents and data from the first to the fifth generation, which is a great asset to me. I can learn a lot from the small details, such as the mixture of glazes and the mixture of clay. Moreover, when I understand that "this is how it was done in the old days," I can see how to improve it by comparing it with the modern process. Nowadays, the environment and tools have changed, so it is difficult to reproduce the old methods exactly. However, I am grateful that I can improve it by thinking, "Let's try changing this and that" based on the data.
[Nishimura] For example, when making straw ash glaze, I hear that the composition of the ash is different because the rice grown in the rice fields is different between now and the past. So the iron removal process is different in the first place. As times change, the rice varieties used as materials also change, so the firing method and preparation method are likely to be greatly affected.
[Ogawa] That's right. For example, we have glazes called Ichigoyu, Nigoyu, and Sangoyu. They all have the same base material, but the way they melt and the transparency change depending on which and how much you mix. Old recipes say, "If you add this much, it will melt well," but as times change and the purity and properties of the ingredients change, the same amount can produce a completely different color. For example, copper has become more pure than in the past, so the amount of impurities has decreased. For ordinary industrial products, the higher the purity, the better, but for pottery, the impurities are an important factor in creating unique colors and flavors. Even the green of Oribe pottery has a different look now than it did in the past.
[Nishimura] In the case of crafts, if they become too pure, the flavor can become monotonous. The instability of the material and accidental chemical reactions are what make it so appealing. That's what makes pottery so interesting.
[Ogawa] That's exactly right. When comparing the colors and atmosphere of old and modern Oribe wares, one of the reasons is the difference in purity of the copper and other trace elements. Nowadays, we can get really high-purity copper, so the reaction we're aiming for tends to be too strong, making it difficult to achieve the "good instability" of the past. My challenge is how to reproduce that or utilize it in a new way.
[Nishimura] In that sense, even though the green seen in Ogawa's works appears to use the same copper as Oribe, the color is something completely different.
[Ogawa] That's right. We both use copper as the base coloring material, but in my case, I combine other materials and create my own unique mixture. As a result, the color is quite different from Oribe green. Depending on the mixture and firing method, it becomes a completely different thing.
[Nishimura] The green color may continue to change in the future as ingredients change. It's truly a living thing.
[Ogawa] You're right. Raw materials will continue to decrease and become harder to obtain, and new alternative materials and technologies may emerge, so adjustments and improvements are always necessary. It's not always possible to make the same thing. Every year, I feel like, "Huh? This year's copper is a little different," so it's a process of trial and error.
[Nishimura] Let's change the topic a little. There are many different motifs in your work. The dragonfly design is particularly impressive. What kind of work do you have in mind centered on dragonflies in the future?
[Ogawa] I'm currently focusing on dragonflies. I started using dragonflies in earnest about two years ago. My father has been incorporating dragonflies into his work for a long time, but I didn't use them much. But recently I started using them as a motif.
[Nishimura] What was the reason that your father liked to use dragonflies as a motif?
[Ogawa] For my father, the dragonfly is something that overlaps with the Zero fighter of old. I heard that during the war, the Zero fighter was called the "red dragonfly." My father's older brother, my uncle, died as a member of the kamikaze squadron, and my father seemed to have associated his brother's death with the Zero fighter, and so he used the dragonfly as a symbol.
Dragonfly incense burner by Bunsai Ogawa (5th generation)
[Nishimura] I also read that on the website . It has to do with the sad history of Akatonbo and the kamikazes.
[Ogawa] Yes. My father was a man who had barely escaped from a mission as a human torpedo and returned alive, so I think he had strong feelings about war. Following in his brother's footsteps, he adopted the dragonfly motif, and even after that, he often used fish motifs at the same time.
[Nishimura] Dragonflies and fish. Owls and other auspicious motifs are fairly standard for incense burners, but fish seem unusual. I've heard that some people dislike the fishy image.
[Ogawa] That's right. It's not very common to use fish as a motif for an incense burner. But my father deliberately combined it with a dragonfly. He created a unique design with a dragonfly on top of the incense burner and a fish on the base.
[Nishimura] Did your father teach you directly how to create such motifs?
[Ogawa] I finally started working full-time when my father was about 65 years old, so to be honest, we didn't have much time to work together. But I learned a lot by watching and imitating. He sometimes gave me detailed instructions on how to mix glazes, but it was fragmented and he would say, "Try it yourself." My father didn't go to school, so he wrote down what he learned in practice. On the other hand, I went to school for a long time and studied pottery, so we have some things in common and some differences. Even so, I ended up taking over a large amount of data, including research materials on "gosu" from my father. It's a great asset.
[Nishimura] Even if gosu is not necessarily used frequently now, the materials may come in handy for future generations, such as the seventh or eighth generation.
[Ogawa] That's right. In fact, we have already finished digitizing the data on the gosu, and have progressed to the point of conducting firing tests. However, as times change, the raw materials change, and the type of fuel changes, such as gas kilns, electric kilns, and wood-fired kilns, so the same results often cannot be obtained with the same recipe. We don't know how the next generation will change the firing method, but the data should provide some hints.
[Nishimura] It's true that climbing kilns are difficult to use in the Gojozaka area, and they can't be used due to smoke exhaust problems, but I've heard that in other areas, climbing kilns are operated while installing smoke exhaust devices. But just because technology has advanced doesn't mean it's always a positive thing for pottery. Just like the purity of copper, there are many aspects that aren't straightforward.
[Ogawa] That's exactly right. For industrial products, perfectly controlling the temperature and atmospheric composition using smoke exhaust devices reduces quality errors and increases the stability of the product. But for our craft works, errors and chance are what give them "flavor" and "depth." We enjoy the changes in how the flame moves in the kiln and how the air flows, so when we turn on the smoke exhaust device, new and unpredictable things happen. It's like a "living thing," and that's what makes pottery so interesting.
[Nishimura] I think the charm of pottery is that each piece shows a different expression. There is a big difference between crafts and industry.
[Ogawa] Yes. For industrial products, the higher the precision and purity, the less error there is. The same quality can be maintained even in mass production. That is an important value in itself. On the other hand, for the craft works we make, we intentionally use flowing glazes, hoping to see how the color will change, or aiming for accidental kiln changes. The joy is enjoying these "uncertainties." There are many failures, but there are also some that shine among them. I think that the subtle changes that make you wonder "Is this a success or a failure?" when looking at the finished product are interesting for the viewer.
[Nishimura] When an artist struggles but feels that "this is interesting," viewers can also enjoy it while imagining, "I see, this is where the glaze moved." I think that's the depth of pottery. It's like there's a drama that unfolds, not just in the color and shape, but also in the firing method and changes in the material.
[Ogawa] That's exactly right. One of the charms of pottery is that it stimulates the imagination of those who use it and those who see it. In my case, I particularly like green, so I experiment every day in search of even the most interesting colors and scenery. This process of trial and error is both fun and difficult.
[Nishimura] Thank you very much for your very interesting talk today. Once again, I am looking forward to the collaboration between the history inherited from your father's generation and the new greenery created by your own sensibility. I am also looking forward to seeing how your creative endeavors, including your dragonfly works, will develop in the future.
